Russian dating sites

by Bill
(New York)

First, my congratulations and sincere thanks for creating a truly helpful site! Only wish had found it sooner, but then I might not have met the most amazing lady in my life!

Am hoping you can help with following questions: 1) what do you know about 'Online Dating Ukraine' (also 1st International?), 'Jump4Love', and 'Step2Love'?

And what are your thoughts about using a private investigator (detective agency) in Ukraine to find specific information on a lady?

Met 'Anastasia' at Online Dating Ukraine (first site joined February 2013). Exchanged moderate number of letters, personal info, and photos before I suspected site was a scam! Left there and joined Jump4love which seemed more reputable (found somebody else in your shoes who said it was, sigh) and quickly realized I gone from the 'fat to the fire'! Left Jump and joined AnastasiaDate (yeah, I'm an idiot!) and stayed there for awhile before realizing the error in my ways!

Returned to ODU and picked up again with Anastasia, but after four months had had enough with online dating and left all the sites again!

Flash forward to September 2014 when I picked up with Anastasia AGAIN (yes, there is a method in my madness!) only this time something happened between us, wonderful, a feeling have never felt with any other woman and happily (or sadly, depending on my point-of-view) she stole my heart!

Up until late October we were communicating almost every day on site and private email but since then her letters have slowed to once a week or less and I've become concerned about her well being!

2) What are your thoughts about using a private investigator?

Would like to hear your answers to questions before continuing.

Thanks for your help

Bob's Answer:

Thanks for your compliments!

I have no direct experience with any of the sites you mention, but I do see that another reader posted a question regarding www.online-dating-ukraine.com. See it and my answer at Is Online Dating Ukraine a scam?.

Having just looked at jump4love.com and Step2Love.com my answer regarding those is 99% the same.

ANY TIME you want to know if a site is honest, just look for descriptions of their services. If you find that you must pay for each "letter" (aka, "pay-per-letter") or for each chat session, Skype session, or phone call, it's a scam... a scam in the way I describe on that other page.

NEVER NEVER NEVER use pay-per-letter, not even if they have the most honest sounding anti-scam statement, even if (actually let's say ESPECIALLY IF) they are U.S.-based.

Either the agency/site is writing on behalf of the woman (with or without her knowledge), or the woman is paid a share of the letter revenue for corresponding with you. She is almost surely "real" in that her name, pictures, location, and description are accurate, but it's just a job for her (at best, at worst, she doesn't even know she is writing you).

IF writing women 45 year old, not-very-attractive, a little overweight, etc. at those sites, THOSE MIGHT BE "real" :) If you're writing to 22 year old Victoria's Secret models, fake.

ONLY use free sites or sites that charge for a period of time during which you can have unlimited communication with unlimited women. For example, see my review of
Russian-Ukrainian-Women.com. It has far and away the largest, most active database of Russian/Ukrainian women of any site, and it's pay-per-period (like a match.com).

As for the private investigator? NO. On the one hand, Russia/Ukraine is not like here where a P.I. could probably tell you 99% of what you needed to know without leaving his/her computer. Not nearly so much is computerized. They are often paid cash, records regarding whether someone is married or not will rarely be found.

So it really wouldn't even work if it was a good idea.

But the bigger thing is that you just need to stay away from the pay-per-letter sites. Even if you do avoid pay-per-letter you still need to be on alert, but on PPL it is CERTAIN!

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Response
by: Bill

Thanks for responding so quickly.

Regarding pay-per-letter agree with everything you said.

While using Online Dating Ukraine noticed many times that letters from different ladies were too similar, in two instances exactly the same, and after complaining received the usual platitudes from management. The red flags were just too obvious and left shortly thereafter.

Of all the sites joined (Online Dating Ukraine, Jump4love, AnastasiaDate, A Foreign Affair, Elena’s Models, and Step2Love found the most ‘real’ women on ODU. I still believe a couple of the ladies met on ‘Jump’ are real and interestingly they are the ones who seem most sincere on ‘Step’. It’s funny to realize many of these ladies belong to several sites and always wondered before what type of job they might have that allows 24/7 internet access? As you said, their real ‘job’ is writing letters to gullible men!

Truly a fool’s paradise!

In fact, there almost seems to be some grand network underneath many of these sites that interconnects them all! Have you ever investigated that?

Am a freelance writer/novelist now but in times past wore many hats while starting several businesses and would say am quite good at manipulating others for personal gain (lol). Recently calculated had personally met over thirty-thousand people from every walk of life and from this exposure (and training) am so good at quickly sizing up people many think am clairvoyant!

Couple this knowledge with the very real experience from having dated well over three hundred ladies before the age of thirty and you might say I know more about women then they know!

So I did quickly notice the tell-tale signs of ‘scammery’ and returned to the web time and again in hopes of finding the truth. So I continued communicating with the ladies that seemed most real in hopes of getting their personal addresses and moving off-site to ‘safety’! Still believe a couple of these ladies are real and sincere in their affection, the minority of real ladies you’ve mentioned exist on a few non-ppl sites, and still believe with all my heart that Anastasia is real.

Did notice the lack of reliable information in Ukraine. There is one investigator service (can send link) that does seem honest (whatever that means in Ukraine, lol) but also realize it could be quite expensive!

So my next questions are: do you have any suggestions on how else her real address could be found? Have found on a few Ukraine blogs their members in Ukraine were ready to help but have heard this is not easy due to privacy laws? Do you know anyone personally who can help?

Why am I doing all this?

You could say it is OCD (a personal weakness) in that I need real closure before being able to move on emotionally, especially after someone has gotten so close to my heart, and am hoping to send one last letter so I can close this chapter in my life!

Thanks again.

[Bob's Answer:]

I will post my reply as a separate comment...

Response
by: Bob (Site Owner)

OK, so now I see why I didn't have to spend an hour cleaning up your writing so that it would be readable to others :)

About that "grand network underneath" the sites... Just as much as chasing down the real/honest/sincere women in the midst of the pay-per-letter sewer is a fool's errand, the effort to discover formal linkages between sites is just as much a fool's errand. I have never REALLY "investigated", BUT... before even browsing to some of those sites you reference (jump4love, step2love) I thought, "Hmmm, how similar these names are... almost like they come from the same person's brain..." :). Then, within a quarter second of opening those sites you referenced (ODU, jump4love, step2love) an "AnastasiaDate" aura jumped off the screen... pictures a little too hot, a little too clean and crisp... I can't completely describe it, but it hit me instantly.

Then I immediately looked for the description of services and saw the Pay-Per-Letter services.

So I don't really know IF there is a connection, or what that connection is, but the similarities are hard to avoid. Maybe they are formally related... Each AnastasiaDate affiliate agency may also belong to these other skeezy networks as well. Maybe the owners of one or more of these local agencies came up with the business model based on ADate. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don't know anyone in Ukraine who can help investigate, and I'll email you so you can send me the PI's name.

But ultimately the solution to ALL of this is to escalate this thing with Anastasia from "virtual" to REAL. Get her real cell phone number and call her. If she gives any push-back, that's a sign. ALL Ukrainian women have cell phones, and on Ukrainian cell phones ALL incoming calls are free (even from international). If that goes well, get her Skype name and arrange a Skype video call. If that goes well, PLAN A TRIP. Arrange all your own accommodations.

If she's serious she should openly welcome these steps. If she resists, she's not serious.

Read my Avoiding Russian Women Scams page about following the money. Well, read the whole thing. But the best way to detect authenticity in this process is to simply watch for the possibility of profit on their part. All that is described on that page.

Response
by: Bill

Found what seems to be further evidence of a ‘grand network’: received letters from same lady but on two different sites (Amo Latina and AFA) both arriving nearly at same instant! Amo Latina is of course part of AnastasiaDate (the Evil Empire) but I always thought of it being different because most of the ladies look and sound more real, are generally older then other sites and most appear to have children.

AFA also seemed safer for same reasons, ladies look and sound more real and the site has membership option you like of buying access for a period of time as well as Pay-Per-Letter! After discovering these letters I wonder now!

I’ve also seen the many similarities and even direct connections between ODU, Jump4love, Step2Love, and several other sites that seem to share ladies like commodities. Discovered one close lady friend was a member at four sites (later discovered on two more) , but after we grew closer she left all of them and now supposedly only talks to me on private email.

Here is what I think is going on: one or two large sites built and now maintain a large database of ladies; smaller sites associated with local agencies then select specific ladies for their own ‘inventory’, handling the translation duties in-house while paying a certain percentage to the larger database manger!

Here is something interesting: a new lady who wrote recently on ODU mentioned some statistics the site had compiled: how many ladies had approached, number was talking with now, my general attitude, and some personal details only mentioned to other ladies! This shows the agency does not keep confidential the letters men send to ladies, and in fact they may use the information to entice men to write more ladies!

Had a vision of my ‘rap’ sheet posted on a large cork-board as if on some ‘12 most wanted list’, and ladies walking by and stopping to study the potential ‘marks’ while making comments such as "Oh look, Svetlana, that handsome older man there man lives in New York so maybe you’ll get some nice designer clothes!"

Escalation is indeed the last resort but it only partially worked for me.

Primary focus now is to find her real address.

Take a look at this site:

http://www.detective-ukraine.com/index.htm

Reply
by: Bob (Site Owner)

Thanks for the additional research.

But one thing I definitely want to clarify here: AFA is NOT a membership site in any meaningful way! Their "Premium" memberships used to mean that you could obtain contact information (you pay your monthly membership fee and you could obtain all the contact data available for unlimited women during that period). It's not like that any more.

Now they hide behind this IMBRA law that prohibits them from disclosing contact information for women prior to her seeing a man's IMBRA background disclosure. Here's the description from their site:

"We have implemented a new system for those women who have their own E-mail addresses. First you will need to register and complete the Personal Background form. Once that is completed you can order their address and you will receive a virtual E-mail addresses that will go to her actual E-mail address through our system. She will receive your personal background information when you send the initial E-mail, and if she likes she can respond directly back to you using her real E-mail address. From that point you can correspond directly. There are no extra charges to send or receive E-mails using the virtual E-mail system!"

Now think about it... let's say you see one of the SCORCHING hot women on AFA's home page top banner and pick her as one of your contacts that you get with that premium membership. Well, if she's one of those "rainmakers" (those there purely there to generate profit, either for AFA or for themselves). What's she going to say about communicating with you through direct email?

So, I definitely couldn't let it stand that AFA is the kind of membership site I like :)

But here's another crazy thing to explain... Go to any hot AFA profile (click any in the home page top banner) and copy a good chunk of text from the profile... maybe 150 characters, ideally the more unique sentences. For example:

"First of all I would say that I'm responsible and serious in my attitude towards life but yet romantic, sensual and enthusiastic at the same time"

I would link to this profile, but in a week, month, or year it will go away and it would leave a broken link for me to fix. But on AFA now it is Olga, 35 y.o., from Nikolaev Ukraine.

Now go paste that text into Google, SURROUNDED BY DOUBLE QUOTES. Here are some other places that exact string of text occurs:

- anthony48922 Single Male in Los Angeles, California on Match.com
- Smokin hot 35 year old on adultdatelink.com
- Rita, 29 y.o., Chula Vista CA on okcupid.com
- Rebecca, 36 y.o., "User Verified", on www.datanta.com
- Natalya, 44 y.o., Volzhsky Russia, on candybrides.com
- Kathleen23, 33 y.o., Frankfurt Germany, on casual.letsmeetup.com

Ok, there are many more, but that kinda makes my point. Somewhere in the world someone dreamed up that string of text, "First of all I would say that I'm responsible and serious in my attitude towards life but yet romantic, sensual and enthusiastic at the same time".

It's a little too long for this many supposedly different people, different ages, different locations, on different sites to have all dreamed up the EXACT same wording independently.

And this phenomenon exists in 80% of AFA's "Banner Girls".

Did the women on AFA actually come up with this text and all the others plagiarize it? Or was one of the others the source? OR, is there some giant "Sappy dating site profile text" database out there that they all draw from?

Anyway, "your assignment, should you choose to accept it..." :)

Response
by: Bill

Did not realize AFA had changed their membership model. First joined there in 2013 and seem to recall the ‘unlimited’ membership model being offered and wish now I’d used it (or one of the other two sites you mention). Most, if not all, of the site reviewers back then pointed to AFA and Elena’s models as being the most trustworthy but your reviews here indicate that those ‘good’ times are past!

Ironically, it is far easier to explain the common letter structure you’ve found ("First of all.. at the same time") in the fact that most people are very poor writers and have great difficulty expressing themselves. This is actually a gender, age, cultural, and perhaps even racial issue that has only gotten worse over time. I’d rather not go into details here which are based on personal research done for a future book on ‘perception’, but let us just say that most people are too lazy to write good prose and the internet too easy a source for it!

It is easy to see why young ladies in a foreign land resort to a common letter format when approaching foreign men! What is impressive is whoever wrote the basic letter forms (someone related to your "Sappy dating site profile text" database) created an amazingly successful model that has worked to ensnare thousands of men worldwide! What a business, eh? I wonder who discovered it first? Was he Ukrainian or Russian? Would love to see the revenue numbers for the industry.. dating sites.. travel tours.. gifts.. telecom and network access.. plus all of the darker side, call girls, prostitution, paraphernalia, porn videos, etc.. wow!

What are your thoughts regarding the detective agency? Do you know of any other way to get a real address?

Yes, Jim, the assignment is difficult but not impossible!
I recall a saying posted in the hanger of the World War II aircraft carrier Yorktown that said, " The difficult we do immediately – the impossible takes a little longer!"

Answer
by: Bob (Site Owner)

The detective agency looks legit, but I really don't see the value in going through all that to get a physical address.

Except for the one girl I married (now divorced), of all the women with whom I have communicated I'm not sure I can remember ever knowing any of their physical addresses. And I didn't even know the physical address of my ex until I started filling out fiancee visa paperwork.

After a cumulative 80+ hours on Skype video calls spanning four months I visited her in her home town. She got a rental car (I paid for it) and picked me up at the airport and brought me to her apartment.

And to use the example of my ex to make another point, when I first wrote her she replied saying "Hi, I liked your profile too and would like to get to know you, and the best way will be on Skype, WITH A WEBCAM. And you should be prepared to send many more pictures of yourself as I will be doing the same..."

Can you see how that would immediately remove LOTS of uncertainty? My intuition kicked in and screamed "This is how it is supposed to be; this is authentic; this is how a woman serious about finding a foreign partner would approach it: She would be just as interested in validating my authenticity as I would be hers, after all she's contemplating leaving her home, city, country, family to come be with me... surely she would want to know I'm real more than I would want to know she's real!"

That's why when guys post here asking how they can tell if a Russian/Ukrainian girl is "real" (not exactly what you're asking here) I cringe. I know some guys may be a little too paranoid about what goes on over there, but most of the time if a man is asking me if a Russian/Ukrainian girl is real, she probably isn't. And the reason the guys aren't sure is because their intuition isn't picking up all those loud, obvious signals that I describe from my own situation.

I would bet that a few hours per week on Skype video calls would clear this up. And if you can't get that video time, DUMP HER! And if you do get the video time but still aren't completely sure about things, then it's seriously time to plan a trip. But you would plan that trip with a "Plan B" in mind.

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